Jim [00:00:00] Meetings are central to how organizations function. And interestingly, it looks like most leaders in most organizations actually have a problem with meetings, as in they feel like, "We have way too many. I don't have time for any more meetings."

Margot [00:00:18] The interesting thing is that the frequency of meetings can, in fact, actually undermine your team's effectiveness.

Jim [00:00:24] But let's be, let's be really direct. It's not just about frequency. It's what we do in those meetings. And sometimes we kid ourselves. We think that we are having too many meetings, but it's actually the side conversations that are burning up more of the time and making it so that our meetings aren't as productive and focussed as they ought to be.

Jim [00:00:53] Welcome to The OrgHealth Podcast: conversations about organizational health. I'm Jim Brown.

Margot [00:01:00] And I'm Margot Thompson. We're consultants and coaches to leaders who are creating healthy organizations.

Jim [00:01:05] We talk about leading at the executive level. Not just the key points, the highlights; we like to go deeper.

Margot [00:01:12] Under the surface. We like to talk about what isn't obvious...

Jim [00:01:15] And maybe what isn't comfortable!

Margot [00:01:17] Right. And we come at these things from very different viewpoints. Easy, because Jim and I are very, very different from each other.

Jim [00:01:25] That's true. But the good news is we've worked together long enough that we see our differences as strengths.

Margot [00:01:31] In fact, they actually allow us to create more health in our team and the teams that we help. And we're going to do some of that right now.

Jim [00:01:48] So let's think about what an effective team meeting really could look like. The whole team is gathered. They're very clear about what it is they're talking about. Sometimes that means that they have an agenda and people have advance information. Sometimes that means they just have a format that they always follow so people know exactly what the structure is going to be. But people lean into it. Everyone contributes. There's a high enough trust level that people say what they're really thinking. They challenge ideas. And even more uncomfortably, they admit when they maybe dropped the ball, made mistakes, need help. These are the things that we are really seeing as hallmarks of effective team meetings.

Margot [00:02:35] And there are a lot of reasons why that doesn't actually happen in a team meeting. There are lots of reasons, actually. You talked about accountability. A lot of people are very afraid of being accountable. They feel that they're going to be blamed for pieces that haven't happened, in that environment. And that underlines how important trust is on a team.

Jim [00:02:57] So trust is the thing that makes it so people can say those uncomfortable things, can hear the input that maybe didn't used to come because that was challenging the "alpha", people in the room, these kinds of issues. Why is it that people are so concerned that this is going to be bad for them?

Margot [00:03:23] I think that there is a concern about whether they will be punished in some way, shape or form, either by the leader or by their peers. I also think that accountability isn't always the easiest thing. If you don't have an understanding that other people are going to help deal with how to make a solution for the problem...

Jim [00:03:47] Yeah. And those side conversations that happen, they're often making excuses for why this happened, so that I'm trying to minimize the weight that I have to carry for this or blaming and deflecting the responsibility to somebody else. These are taxes on time. It's not helping get any problems solved. It really is just all about trying to protect ourselves. And if we would just trust the team enough to say, yeah, but now we're going to solve this problem together, so much more can get done.

Margot [00:04:25] Yeah. Communication is the key. If you don't express how you're feeling and what your needs are to the group as a whole, you're not necessarily going to get back what that group as a whole can do to help you move through to a solid solution.

Jim [00:04:42] Right. So, let's consider a scenario. Let's say that the team leader is Bernice and she is really determined to make this an effective team meeting. But her concern is that as they walk into it, Frank is going to be showing up, and everybody knows that Frank didn't do what he said he was going to do by Thursday last week. That has to get talked about. Bernice knows it. And there's a tendency that Bernice has that, well, maybe she should go and talk to Frank about this. Just off to the side. One-on-one conversation. But, why is it better not to do that?

Margot [00:05:25] So backing up a little bit, I think that why she would want to do that in the first place, is she would be worried about Frank's reaction. She would be worried about upsetting or hurting Frank's feelings. She would be worried about how calling Frank out in front of the team might look to other individuals and how they might react to that. So, I would say a lot of the onus is on the leader and the way that they bring these things forward in team meetings.

Jim [00:05:53] Agreed. So, let's say that they bring it, Bernice brings it forward. What should that look like in a great team meeting?

Margot [00:06:04] I think we see two fairly typical reactions on leader's parts when they're dealing with a situation like this. The first one is the type of leader who wants to identify the problem, come to a logical solution, potentially—in identifying the problem—land that directly with the person responsible, come to a logical solution, find an action, move forward.

Jim [00:06:30] I like that. (laughs)

Margot [00:06:31] I know you do. (laughs) Another typical reaction from a different type of leader is to not nail it on the person personally, take a direct view of what the situation is, put it out to the group, look for solutions, and be moving forward without having a person become accountable for that problem.

Jim [00:06:53] Or, or more bluntly, a person feel like all the blame was on them.

Margot [00:06:56] Correct.

Jim [00:06:58] So, so we agree that a great team, one, they're going to talk about this problem as a team rather than one on one because it's really a team issue. The organization isn't getting something done that is essential to accomplish. Two, whatever that person did or did not do—contributing to that default, that deficit—others on the team could have helped in some way.

Margot [00:07:29] Right.

Jim [00:07:29] So it's a fair question to say, "Frank, why didn't you let us know that this was going to be a problem? We could have helped." Or, "What could we do next time so that we can work together as a team to prevent this from being a problem for all of us?" And it's not about attacking Frank. It's about demonstrating the whole team that when someone drops the ball, we're not trying to throw them under the bus. We're actually trying to figure out a better way for us together to solve problems that we face. And the more that that could happen, the safer everyone feels about admitting when they have dropped the ball. Or even better, proactively admitting when the ball might be getting dropped. "I can see that it's going to be impossible for me to get this done by Thursday. Could someone help?"

Margot [00:08:25] Right. And communication is key there because you can help. Nobody else on the team can help if they don't know what the problem is and they don't know that there is a problem.

Jim [00:08:33] Right. But even there, admitting that we need help... is a scary thing to lots of people, because it's kind of like saying I'm admitting that I'm not really able to do my job.

Margot [00:08:44] Right. And this is where we need to underline trust and psychological safety on the team itself.

Jim [00:08:49] Exactly. Yeah.

Margot [00:08:50] When you have a team that is trusting each other, they are more willing to put out there: "This has been a mistake that's happened. This is something that I need help with." These are the kinds of things that you need to put out to your team members. You need to be able to look for some sort of cooperation and collaboration from your team members in order to come to a solution that's holistically healthy for the company and the team itself.

Jim [00:09:15] Yeah. So, I'm just imagining that we have a team that's never done this before. Let's use the same team names. So Bernice sees this. Bernice knows that it should be talked about. But to bring it up in front of the team and, in a sense, blindside Frank is an awkward situation. And it's not only awkward for Frank. Wouldn't you agree that others in the room might be going, "Oh my God, how did—I would feel terrible if that was me. So I feel terrible for Frank." What do you think, Margot, about Bernice talks to Frank and says, "So this thing happened. We were expecting you to get this done by Thursday. It didn't get done. I would like us to process that as a team, and it's not about making you all accountable. It's about making the team accountable for solving these kinds of problems. Frank, would you be willing to bring this up to the team perhaps by apologizing right off the bat and then inviting some help in figuring out how to prevent this from happening again?"

Margot [00:10:29] That's a great strategy. First of all, Bernice, obviously, if she's going to be bringing this whole thing up anyway, knows about the situation. Probably Frank is aware that Bernice knows about the situation. When Bernice offers Frank the opportunity to put it out there and maybe even coaches him through how that could work well on the team and gives him some understanding about what kind of reactions he might get when he puts that out there, then she's empowering him to ask for what he needs. She's empowering him to tell his colleagues and to look for their assistance, which builds the type of trust that you need on the team. This is vulnerability-based trust in a nutshell.

Jim [00:11:16] Yeah. So if the whole group is seeing that, one, Frank is being brave enough to, volunteer this as a "I dropped the ball. I'm sorry", the whole... There's a good chance that some people are showing up thinking, "What the heck? Frank didn't get that done. We need to...".

Margot [00:11:39] Right.

Jim [00:11:41] "...Put it to him."

Margot [00:11:41] That'll be in the background of the team dynamic already.

Jim [00:11:45] Right. For at least some people around the table. For Frank to start with an apology likely bursts that bubble, likely puts a lot of air out of the sails on those "we have to get Frank" sort of opinions to "Wow, Frank... Wow. Good for Frank. He's admitting it." So it starts the conversation into a whole different place, of...

Margot [00:12:08] Right.

Jim [00:12:09] "We could work together on this."

Margot [00:12:10] They're already solution minded. Yes.

Jim [00:12:13] And that's what we want. Great teams put their energy on solutions, not on blaming, not on excuses. Solutions.

Margot [00:12:24] Exactly.

Jim [00:12:27] So ultimately what we would love would be that Bernice doesn't have to be the person that would bring this up, either to Frank one-on-one or to Frank in the team meeting, because what's the hallmark of a really great leadership team?

Margot [00:12:46] Peer-to-peer accountability.

Jim [00:12:48] Exactly. So Bernice is trusting that the team is not going to just let this get kicked to the corner or swept under the carpet. Someone around the table is going to say, "Hey, Frank, let's talk about that Thursday deadline that got missed. We want to know how we could help you better." And the more that people believe that we're holding each other accountable, not in a kind of press-them-under-with-blame and "you're not good enough", but in a "we need this to happen so let's find the solution together"... It just changes the whole dynamic of what it means to admit mistakes or needs to your team.

Margot [00:13:37] Let's talk for a second about why less healthy leadership teams aren't willing to do that. I think similarly to what happened with Bernice, they are concerned about hurting Frank's feelings. They're concerned about looking like they're against Frank to their peers. They're concerned about being called out themselves—if they start drilling people out, will they be called out for something? And let's face it, we're all making mistakes. This is the way of the world. So why do you think that people are less likely in a team situation to bring up these things?

Jim [00:14:15] Yeah, yeah, I think that those are all good reasons. We don't want to be on the hot seat, so we probably shouldn't put other people on the hot seat. We. We don't want to look bad, so we shouldn't make somebody else look bad. We probably don't know all of what went on, so are we just opening a Pandora's box here?

Margot [00:14:39] And where will we be held accountable?

Jim [00:14:40] Yeah, right.

Margot [00:14:42] And I think also that there are certain types of people who are more willing to step forward with that and other types of people who are less likely to be willing to step forward with that, not necessarily because they don't want to either be accountable or hold someone accountable, but because their natural behaviours just don't lend themselves to that.

Jim [00:15:02] Hopefully with more team experience working through the solutions of these things, everyone will become more familiar and more comfortable with patterns that get them to the right kind of outcomes. So, Bernice is the leader and we've already talked about something she could do to try to ease people towards making this happen. But let's talk about what the leader could do in a meeting where it's going to happen. What are some of the things that are crucial so that the right kind of conversation happens?

Margot [00:15:37] I think it's really important that the leader is modelling the behaviour in the first place. So strong modelling of what that leader is hoping to see in those meetings. Vulnerability based trust being right at the top of the list.

Jim [00:15:52] Right. So, Bernice would apologize when she's made some decision and it really didn't go well. She's going to take some weight for that.

Margot [00:16:02] For sure.

Jim [00:16:03] And that she is going to thank people for their ideas that made her ideas better. These kinds of things. But, but a more crucial piece that most leaders need to be really guarded against is that they talk less! Too many leaders do too much of the talking, and then they wonder why people in the team aren't contributing in the meetings.

Margot [00:16:28] Sure. And there's a natural tendency towards the power balance being... people being very aware of the power balance and hierarchical thinking. So, a lot of people wait for the leader to speak before they even offer an opinion or offer a solution.

Jim [00:16:43] Yeah. So, as a leader, we could be asking questions rather than just talking about stuff.

Margot [00:16:49] Right.

Jim [00:16:50] Or worse, suggesting, "Here's an option. What do you think?" Well, everybody knows that the right answer to that is, "That's a great idea, Bernice!"

Margot [00:16:58] Right.

Jim [00:16:59] "Thanks for sharing that." (laughs) What could Bernice be looking for in the group to know who to ask in and where to go next in those moments?

Margot [00:17:10] So that's a, that's a complicated question to me. But I think on the surface of that is that she needs to know what each one of those people can bring to the conversation. So, she needs to know that Frank can bring this, Mary can bring that and be facilitating more than actually telling anybody anything, because Frank is the expert in his area and Mary is the expert in her area. And what they have to say is very important.

Jim [00:17:39] Good. Yeah. So, Bernice would kind of make stars out of people for what they are bringing.

Margot [00:17:45] Exactly.

Jim [00:17:47] Yes. And even the "who's going to talk"... One of the signals is, are they looking at you? Do you have eye contact? So, when you ask your question, look around the team. If somebody is looking right in your eye, they probably are willing to say something. They've got something on the tip of their tongue.

Margot [00:18:04] So one of the things that you say, particularly to boards of directors, Jim, that I've always thought is extremely powerful, is that silence is not agreement.

Jim [00:18:16] Yeah. So, the leader needs to notice when someone isn't talking and rather than just kind of, "Okay, I guess we're all in favour," as in, everything that's been expressed has been in favour. But there are three people that haven't said anything.

Margot [00:18:31] So they're not saying no...

Jim [00:18:32] They're not saying no. But a better approach is to presume that silence is disagreement.

Margot [00:18:39] Right.

Jim [00:18:39] And say, "Oh, Andrew, I haven't heard from you yet. My bias is to presume that people that don't say anything don't agree with what's being said. What are you really thinking? Dig in." And we better have people around the table that can share their perspectives. It might not be in that instant, they might need 10 seconds to process a bit more and then speak, great. Just take time as a leader and say, "Yeah. Think it through. Let's hear what your thoughts are." As opposed to just saying, "Well, they don't like to share."

Margot [00:19:16] Right. I think a side benefit to the leader making sure that everyone's had a chance to speak is that there's none of that sort of psychological belief—probably erroneous—that the individual, separate conversations that have happened in the past aren't showing an allegiance to any particular person. I think a lot of people believe that if someone is having a side conversation with the leader, that they are sort of a leg up or that they have a different level of status. But if a leader can make sure that everyone around the table on the team is able to express what they need to express for their piece of the situation, then everything feels much more in balance.

Jim [00:20:02] True. Well, there's so much that teams can do and leaders can do to make teams really use meetings effectively. We're really hoping that people will be brave and have the uncomfortable conversations in the team meeting rather than off to the side. Let's just expect to hear more from some of our leaders about how they're making this happen.