Jim [00:00:04] Welcome to The OrgHealth Podcast: conversations about organizational health. I'm Jim Brown.

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Margot [00:00:10] And I'm Margot Thompson. We're consultants and coaches to leaders who are creating healthy organizations.

Jim [00:00:15] We talk about leading at the executive level—not just the key points, the highlights. We like to go deeper.

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Margot [00:00:22] ...Under the surface! We like to talk about what isn't obvious.

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Jim [00:00:26] And maybe what isn't comfortable.

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Margot [00:00:28] Right. And we come at these things with very different viewpoints. Easy, because Jim and I are very, very different from each other.

Jim [00:00:35] That's true. But the good news is we've worked together long enough that we see our differences as strengths.

Margot [00:00:41] In fact, they actually allow us to create more health in our team and the teams that we help. And we're going to do some of that right now.

Jim [00:00:58] Margot, we're talking about meetings. In our last episode, we were talking about how important it is for teams to meet together and have conversations that need to happen in the whole team there rather than off to the side. But there's another problem that even when teams do meet, often like a third of the people do 80 percent of the talking and some of the people sometimes don't say a single thing. This is a problem for team meetings. Let's tackle this.

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Margot [00:01:32] Sure. I think that some people are wired to be the expressors and some people are wired not to be the expressors and not something that every team needs to address in itself.

Jim [00:01:44] Definitely. And there isn't a right and wrong. But the truth is that the expressors need to dial it back sometimes to make more space for the others. And the quieter ones need to bring their thoughts forward so that the whole team can benefit from what they have.

Margot [00:02:01] Right. Agreed. And as we said in our previous podcast, there's a point about silence not being agreement. So we need to have teams understand that when someone's being quiet, they are not expressing agreement. In fact, we should assume that they disagree.

Jim [00:02:18] Right. At the heart of this whole thing, we would dare to suggest that there's really an attitude, a contrasting attitude. Are we coming into the team meeting—whether the leader or any member of the team—are we coming into it with a commitment to collaborate or are we come into it more with a hoarding sort of perspective?

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Margot [00:02:41] Or even with our own agenda!

Jim [00:02:45] Right, which it could be we're hoarding our agenda. This is what we want to get done and we're going to make sure we get that done. We're all about our agenda. What we're going to advocate in this episode is: collaboration is crucial for teams to really work well. And we know that you want your team to work well. That's why we're having this conversation.

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Margot [00:03:07] For sure. I think it's very common for teams to be working in silos. And so you come to the meeting with either your own agenda that furthers what your perspective of this solution might be, or you come without any desire to contribute at all.

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Jim [00:03:26] (Chuckles) I'm trying to relate to that.

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Margot [00:03:28] Meaning that you'd always want to contribute?

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Jim [00:03:29] I think I would always want to contribute, not always for the right reason. Because I would always have an agenda. I need an answer on this or I need commitment to that, or I need someone's help with such and such so that I can get this thing done. And coming back to your point about silos, that's because still too often leadership teams are organized around roles and departments. So we have someone that's responsible for marketing, someone responsible for operations. Here's the person responsible for sales. Here's someone responsible for H.R. and they all sort of have their, "but that's my job and that's enough for me".

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Margot [00:04:10] Yeah, and the important piece is understanding how each one of those departments impacts other departments for a holistic solution.

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Jim [00:04:17] And... Let's not even get into it. We are sure everyone realizes that that's true. If it wasn't that important, we wouldn't have those departments.

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Margot [00:04:28] Absolutely.

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Jim [00:04:29] So if we come from a collaboration mindset, we can begin the conversation by thinking about how does this issue that we're talking about get the best outcomes for the entire organization. Which is why we believe one of the crucial steps or keys to make this happen is that as a leadership team, we would create collective goals, goals that involve everybody. We're all responsible for this together. Obviously, there will be different degrees of involvement that people around the table may have, but no less responsibility.

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Margot [00:05:13] Absolutely. And I think that it's important to understand that having a champion for each one of those goals is not the same as having a silo.

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Jim [00:05:21] Yes.

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Margot [00:05:22] For that goal.

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Jim [00:05:24] Yes. So the champion is making sure that the team keeps talking about this, keeps moving it forward. The conversation continues. We're not losing focus by being distracted to the kind of the problem of the week, but we're still remembering this is the big thing we're trying to make happen as an entire company.

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Margot [00:05:48] So let's talk about what keeps people from talking about what they believe will help in those situations.

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Jim [00:05:55] OK. So I think that one of those problems is that when people come with their own agenda, they're so intent about making sure that it gets discussed and it gets resolved that they don't have an ear for what others are concerned about.

Margot [00:06:16] Right. Coming to speak, not to listen.

Jim [00:06:19] Uh-huh. Yeah. So a collaboration perspective would begin differently. It would ask the question, "How do I help the people around the table so that we have more space to help each other?

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Margot [00:06:36] It's the importance of focussing on asking questions and making sure that you have the information that's needed rather than simply focussing on what you see as the most important piece of the question.

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Jim [00:06:48] Yeah, that's good. When we ask questions, we draw out that involvement of others, and it makes me think of a recent session that we did. Talk about the magic moment where someone on the team was interjecting in a way that the team wasn't familiar with.

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Margot [00:07:10] Well, we talked about the importance of involving everyone and not just accepting, if someone wasn't speaking up, that they were in agreement. So one of the team members at the table made a real effort to consistently ask anyone who was being quiet what their thoughts and what their opinion was. And I think it was very impactful to me to be able to see that. Not only was that bringing all of the different perspectives forward, but the people who were being quiet actually almost seemed relieved. You could almost hear them sighing a little sigh of relief. "Oh, they've asked for my opinion here. I get a chance to give input." And many people who are very introverted do wait to be asked.

‍Jim [00:07:55] Right. Right. Meanwhile, the person that was doing the asking, his natural approach would be to be very expressive. So the fact that he was kind of turning his behaviour against what the old pattern was really helped the introverts believe that he cared about what they were thinking. But I think it also reminded everyone else around the table that was maybe more comfortable with expressing that they need to dial back, too.

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Margot [00:08:27] I agree. I think that the extroverts recognized the need to draw in others rather than to be the only ones talking. And the introverts recognize that they have a need to contribute and that they should be speaking up.

Jim [00:08:40] OK. Let's get candid with each other and with our listeners. You and I are wired differently! That's one of the things we talk about. And in a team meeting, even though my default is to not over express, my history and role is to be responsible. Talk about your default.

Margot [00:09:05] Well, I'm right to the end of the spectrum for introversion, so it's not an easy thing for me to speak up if someone else is talking. So I typically would defer to extroverts because they are more likely to be speaking. And sometimes what happens to me is that I wait for an opening that never, never comes. And so we move to a different topic without an opening in the conversation coming. So I haven't jumped in there. So my thoughts are lost.

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Jim [00:09:33] Yeah. And as a leader, unintentionally and unwittingly, I just kind of expect everyone around the table to bring it, so to speak. So. I was surprised years ago when you talked to me or maybe even to the whole team about how you would like permission, you would like invitation to share your thinking at the team conversation.

Margot [00:10:00] Yeah, I've developed a little bit since then, but.

Jim [00:10:02] Yes, agreed! Absolutely.

Margot [00:10:03] That has been something that I've had to work on. And I think that it's a very, very common reaction from people who are more introverted and more likely to be thinking things through in their head rather than thinking as they speak.

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Jim [00:10:17] Yeah, right. Just for our listeners, let's be clear. Some of us are wired in a way that we want to have it all make sense in our head before we let anything come out of our mouths. And consequently, if the conversation keeps moving, bouncing around, there's more processing that we're doing about this, and then the next thing and the next thing... So we still haven't got it nailed inside our own mind to be able to express.

Margot [00:10:43] Something that would happen to me frequently, particularly in the past, is that I would have many ideas, none of which were expressed. And then after the meeting, I would feel like I never really contributed, I didn't really talk about that.

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Jim [00:10:57] Right. And I'm not sure how much this is the case for you, but I've heard people from teams actually feeling a kind of resentment that they didn't get asked. Because they wish that their opinions were more valued by the team.

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Margot [00:11:14] I think that can happen. And I think that when you're wired in that way, it is more that you think you're not valued. And that's why you're not being asked.

Jim [00:11:25] Yeah. Whereas I've—I will just speak for myself: never was that what I was thinking. It really is a matter of, "We've got lots to do. So speak up. Come on. We need everybody to speak up." So to come back to this contrast of collaboration versus hoarding, as a leader, I need to remind myself that to value collaboration means to respect that people are wired differently and their needs are not inappropriate or... I just should care enough about getting everyone in the conversation that I'm going to do it in a way that works for the different styles around the table.

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Margot [00:12:11] Right. And people are so unique. Some people are very, very wired to be just responding to exactly what's being said and other people are wired to be picking up on different things around the table like body language and mood and reacting to that as they are trying to communicate and that actually affects how they're trying to communicate or not.

Jim [00:12:34] Yeah. Let's, let's dig into the body language thing, because I think that's one of those often unconscious pieces that people have. But again, if we are really committed to collaboration, I'm challenged to remind myself we can't accept unintentional or unconscious body language that actually negatively impacts the whole team.

Margot [00:13:02] Sure, and it happens all the time. People sit back and fold their arms and they look as if they're very closed. Whether they are or not, that's the way it's perceived. People sigh. People look away. Eye roll.

Jim [00:13:16] Yes.

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Margot [00:13:16] All kinds of different things.

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Jim [00:13:18] Yeah. Or they turn and look at the same person. It's kind of like, "Can you believe she just said that? Oh my..."And, yes, there's somewhat—there's speculation about, "Is that really what was going on in that person's mind?" But that body language that people are not conscious of is affecting others on the team.

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Margot [00:13:36] Exactly. It creates a perception.

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Jim [00:13:39] Yeah. So what would you like people to do? Like, let's just remember, it's not just the leader's job to address this. It's a team meeting. And everyone on the team is responsible for the team meeting to work well. So what could someone do to address a body language thing?

Margot [00:14:01] You mean if they don't like the body language that happening?

Jim [00:14:05] Right. They observe something that they're concerned about.

Margot [00:14:08] I think modelling actually is really good, that a lot of people will reflect back what they see. So if you're leaning forward, you're looking at people straight in the eye, you're making it clear that you're listening, then they are more likely to do exactly the same back to you. I think there's a reflection piece that works.

Jim [00:14:28] You're so... You can be so subtle sometimes. Okay. I agree that that would be good. I don't know if it's enough, though. If that's all that everyone around the table did, I'm suspicious, there are some people who are going to just keep on doing the negative body language that they've been doing.

Margot [00:14:50] We could talk about it in team. That's another piece, is that the leader can actually bring this out. Talk about it. There can be discussion. Different people can explain how different types of body language affect their perception of a situation.

Jim [00:15:05] I think that that's a good one to go on. So. Angela is concerned because yet again, Frank... oh boy, poor Frank. I keep using Frank as the example name! Frank rolled his eyes. So Angela, rather than just kind of cringing inside, doubting the value of the thing she just said, she could say, "Frank, I'm not sure if you're aware, but you just rolled your eyes and that made it feel to me like you thought what I just said was nonsense. Let's talk about this because body language is affecting our dynamics." Where do you think that would go?

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Margot [00:15:49] I think that works really well on a team that's experiencing high trust.

Jim [00:15:53] Yeah. And for teams that are working on getting to higher trust, I would love to see the leader of the team get on with that. So, to say, "That's a good point, Angela, I think it deserves some conversation as a whole team so that we can be more effective together."

Margot [00:16:14] And that means the leader has to actually catch it and understand that this is something that will... That bringing forward other people's thoughts on it will help the whole team.

Jim [00:16:24] Right. What have you seen as some reactions by the Frank who gets call out in that...

Margot [00:16:36] I have seen people in that position shut down, retreat, defend... become very defensive. There are lots of reactions, it depends very much on where the teams are in terms of their trust level.

Jim [00:16:54] Fair, fair. Here's the one that surprised me most. They say they didn't even know they did it.

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Margot [00:17:02] No, I don't even think that's uncommon.

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Jim [00:17:04] I agree. I think that it's just too common that there are little things we do with body language that are so natural for us that we're not even conscious that we're doing it. That doesn't mean that it doesn't mean something. So. For Frank to say, "Angela, I'm sorry. I didn't even... Did I do that? I don't even know that I did that." "Yes, you did. And as I said, it kind of makes me feel like you thought my idea was crazy." OK. So Frank could respond and say, "I have some concerns about your idea." If Angela doesn't jump in and draw that out, then this would be where the leader could say, "OK, perfect, this is where we need to go. Let's understand each other." This is what conflict looks like—good conflict. So you've got a concern. Express it with words. Don't just use body language to send a signal that usually shuts people down. We're trying to get more of it on the table. If we're committed to collaboration, we are going to have those kinds of conversations. If we're committed to hoarding, whether we're conscious of it or not, we're hoarding the energy of that conversation. So Frank, probably unconsciously, just hoarded the energy of the conversation. He stopped Angela from talking, and he didn't express his concern about the idea, but others around the table probably saw that he didn't like it. And now we're not going to talk about it anymore. What if there's some real strength in the idea, we just haven't figured out what the upside and downside is?

Margot [00:18:59] This is likely to happen, very likely to happen on any diverse team. Different ideas, different thought processes, different ways of perceiving information. Some people are more likely to see those types of body language and other people are less likely. Some people are more likely to be concentrating on expressing themselves well and not picking up the clues and the things that are coming from other people back at them. The more diverse the team, the more important it is that the leader is able to generate the type of conversation that will allow them to see how each of them is perceiving the information and understand that.

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Jim [00:19:39] Here's another hoarding problem that I notice. Sometimes it's back to this silo sort of thinking. Sometimes people have information, but they don't bring it to the table because they know that information can be power. And so they're waiting for the... almost like, the zinger statement that they can make near the end of the meeting. Or worse yet, after the meeting, to the boss, "I'm concerned about this because of such and such." Oh, well, that's like it that reframed the whole problem. That should have been at the meeting, should have been in the conversation. But... I wish that we could say they unknowingly didn't share. But too often they know exactly what they're not sharing.

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Margot [00:20:31] And again, we're talking about a team that doesn't have a high level of trust. They feel that individual would be feeling like, "Oh, I'm the wunderkind and I can bring the solution. And I don't want anybody else to get the credit for that. I want to get all the credit for that." But when you're looking at the team succeeding rather than your own personal success, it feels totally different.

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Jim [00:20:52] Yeah. Yeah. So it could be that they're looking for credit or it could be that they're looking for resources so that their department gets...

Margot [00:21:00] For sure!

Jim [00:21:01] ...To get something done, which is confusing where team number one is. That's a principle that we'll have to have a whole episode on sometime. Team number one needs to be that leadership team, the team we're on. Yeah. If we're really going to collaborate, we're going to draw other people's thoughts out. We're going to offer our ideas generously. We're going to notice body language that's impacting the team and call it out. We're going to make it be about the team rather than about ourselves.

Margot [00:21:39] OK, we've discussed a lot here, so let's just recap what we can do to focus more on collaboration.

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Jim [00:21:46] Good.

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Margot [00:21:47] So we talked about coming to listen and to speak.

Jim [00:21:51] Right.

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Margot [00:21:52] We discussed being aware of our body language.

Jim [00:21:56] Yeah. That's so important. And we talked about the idea of drawing people into the conversation. If you're at the table, you've got to be part of that conversation.

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Margot [00:22:05] Uh-huh. And sharing relevant information voluntarily.

Jim [00:22:09] Good.

Margot [00:22:10] We also talked about keeping the big picture. What's best for the whole company in mind.

Jim [00:22:14] Right.

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Margot [00:22:15] So leadership teams who collaborate are far more effective, whether it's in their own team or whether it's in the company as a whole as they cascade the culture by modelling themselves.

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