Jim  0:03  
Welcome to the OrgHealth podcast conversations about organizational health. I'm Jim Brown.

Margot  0:10  
And I'm Margot Thompson. We're consultants and coaches to leaders who are creating healthy organizations.

Jim  0:15  
We talk about leading at the executive level.

Margot  0:17  
And we're gonna do some of that right now.

Jim  0:27  
Kris Rudeegraap is the CEO and founder of Sendoso. And he's talking to us today about the company that he's been building, how he got started, the culture that he's creating... So on the OrgHealth podcast today, we're really diving into making it work in real life. Let me give you a little bit of background. This is a fun story because really Sendoso has a organic origin. Kris worked for more than 10 years in tech companies in Silicon Valley, in sales roles. And he found that the best way to get traction with his prospects and his clients was to really get personal engagement with them. And actually to use gifts as a piece of that engagement. Well, it became so effective, that he couldn't even keep up with the needs that he had. So he looked for some help from people in the company to do some of the pieces that that were required. Nobody stepped in. In fact, he couldn't find any avenue. So ultimately, he decided that he would create the world's first sending platform. It's called Sendoso. And it's getting a lot of attention. So Kris, talk to us about this company that you've started. Start us off with the whole gifting idea. When you were in sales. Why do you think gifting made and still makes such a difference with clients?

Kris  2:09  
Yeah, thank you, Jim. And great introduction. I appreciate the details there that you went into. So for me, back when I was in sales, you know, I saw a couple things happen. One is that kind of the oversaturation of email and just digital content, and I felt like I was adding to that kind of oversaturation by sending out millions of emails, it felt like. And so as a creative person, I thought, Hey, how can I get more kind of human-to-human? How can I build a better relationship? And it wasn't sending, you know, 50 more emails, it was, Hey, let me send something that will make this prospect smile, that will be different than the last person that sent them something, that will get them to, you know, respond. And so that's where I started testing out handwritten notes, I'd go get swag from our marketing swag closet, I'd find, you know, quirky gifts off of Amazon, I go grab, like, Starbucks gift cards and mail it out—it became a very successful strategy for me to ultimately, you know, engage and build better relationships with these prospects.

Jim  3:14  
It's easy for me to imagine that you would get attention from from prospects. And so part of what you're talking about is, it's differentiating you from what other people were doing. And it probably in our digital age, it was a welcome change, because I think most of us are kind of sick of getting the faceless, nameless, anonymous sort of email push. Now, it's by text and phone as well. But, anyway, so I can see that that would really help open doors. But from what I've heard you talk about, it's not just opening doors: you use the word relationship. And I think that that's a big key that we want to make more sense of, you were building relationships with these contacts, these prospects and clients. Talk more about that, why did that matter? How did that translate into success for you in the sales role? And then we'll we'll get to more about what looks like at Sendoso.

Kris  4:25  
Yeah, so I'd say I think relationships are the heart of business, and I think if you go back decades and decades ago, you know, people were—you'd go out and get a steak dinner with a prospect in sales or you play golf and you'd, you were trying to do these things that would cause somebody to, you know, like you. And you want to buy from another person you want to you know, you want this personal relationship to be a part of that sales process. And I think with how fast everything went digital online and you know, inside sales, you kind of lost a little bit of that personal touch when you're on the other side of a computer. And just, the emotional connection is quite lost. And so that's where I found gifting to be a unique way to add back in that personal touch to that sales process to in order to build better relationships. And, and then ultimately, for me, it  helped me close more deals.

Jim  5:24  
Awesome. And then you started to recognize that it wasn't just about a nice gift, it became a meaningful experience. And you've really put that into what you're doing at Sendoso. So talk about "meaningful experience". What do you mean by that? And, and how do you make some of that happen?

Kris  5:47  
Yeah, so I think, you know, you've got to think about it in a couple different ways. One is I think you've got to think about the, the, the handwritten note or the printed note, or the message that comes along with a gift, because I think if you just show up, and there's an item in the box, you know, it maybe has less, there's less context. So if you can really combined a quirky well written note, with a gift, that's gonna create a more memorable experience. And I think with that, also, the unboxing. You know, when you unbox a gift, it looks crappy, or it's all jumbled inside, again, it loses some of that unboxing experience.

Jim  6:25  
Yeah.

Kris  6:26  
And so I think the unboxing, the handwritten note, everything coming together, creates that magical moment that when you open it, you see it, you read it, you have like the kind of warm and warm and fuzzies like, oh, you know, this was nice and brings a smile to your face.

Jim  6:41  
Right. And your Silicon Valley experience probably plays into that, like, I will admit that my first Apple product unboxing, it was a thing. It's like, just the design of how the box went together and split apart and how everything was in its place, that was a big deal. And it just, they just keep getting better and better at that. And they're not the only company that's doing that.

Kris  7:11  
Oh, no, but that's a great example. That kind of is exactly what we're trying to accomplish, and what that memorable experience can be translated into, you know, sales process, the customer success process and employee process, so that you can really create more of those moments that matter.

Jim  7:29  
Right. Well, you mentioned earlier that the world seems to be going more and more digital. And it sounds like you're getting more old school in some ways. So talk about that a bit more. Why? I think we know we want it to be more personal, you use the word human—that makes a lot of sense. Is there more that you would explain about your movement to old school?

Kris  7:57  
Yeah, I would position a couple of things. One, I'd say, although this is old school, I'd say most organizations are doing some sort of gifting already on their own, it was just never modernized with software. So the gifting space is multi billion dollar—we didn't invent this space, we just built software on top of it to make it more streamlined, easier to track, more selection, easier to execute on. So I would argue that, you know, the best salespeople, the best, you know, best managers, the best HR people teams are already doing some sort of this, it's just a headache at times, because there's a lot of processes that you have to find the gift, you have to manage the vendor, you got to get the gift, you got to pack it, you got to ship it, you got to track it, you got to expense it. And so there's so many things that make it hard to do that. We make it, you know, so easy that it becomes much more seamless in your day to day. So I'd say that's the first thing is that it while it feels old school, most companies are doing it in some form or another. We're just modernizing with software. I think the second component to that is yes, well, the big you know, words are, hey, let's do digital transformation. And let's bring everything online and digitize things. I think this is where, you know, when someone zigs, you zag, it's like you want to, you know, if everyone's going in the same direction, you can go in a slightly different direction to catch the attention. And so I think we're just capitalizing on the fact that everyone else is pointing in one direction or saying, hey, go this direction. And that's something that is, you know, being different is a great driver of, you know, attention.

Jim  9:44  
Yeah. Cool. Well, I'm gonna get eventually to more of what you're managing to make happen and how you're growing at Sendoso. But let's just take a sidestep. I want us to talk about culture because our, our OrgHealth Podcast listeners are, are all about building culture in their organizations. I can only imagine that the key of engagement that you found to help with working in the sales role has proven to be central, as you engage with your team and all of your staff. Talk to me about that.

Kris  10:26  
Yeah. So I've got a couple ideas on that. One is that, you know, what we found worked well, when we originally got started for sales, which is sending stuff to build better relationships, it was an obvious use case that HR people teams wanted to use Sendoso for engaging and building better relationships with employees.

Jim  10:47  
Sure.

Kris  10:47  
So I think that what we started to build, turned out to be so much bigger and greater than we could have ever dreamed of, because of the different use cases. And I think, you know, people teams are probably our fastest growing segment right now, in terms of the types of users that want to get on the platform to use it. Because of COVID, because people are remote because people are stuck at home still. And so how do you build rapport with a new employee that you've never met before? You know, how do you?—so there's so many different use cases on using this for, you know, employees, that makes so much sense.

Jim  11:29  
And, and, okay, I can't resist it, because I love the idea. And I confess that thinking up, what would be a good thing to give to someone is like a, it's the kind of thing a person who's trying to write a book feels like when they have writer's block. Like, I don't know! And you've done a lot of work in your organization to figure out how to tackle that. So I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but just, start us down that path. (But I might be cueing you with some of the things that you've already told me and that I've read about.) How do you make it easy for a guy like me to create a more personal connection with people that I work with, or people that I do business with, even though coming up with a good gift idea, or meaningful experience idea, isn't my gift area?

Kris  12:36  
Yeah, I've definitely heard that before. So what I would say to that is, one, we have a marketplace of curated gifts. So you get to start somewhere. It's not like there's 50 billion ideas and you're overwhelmed. You can go in there. And you can filter and search and find things that you want to send. So I think that is one of the ways that we make it easier is we just give you some options right in front of you. And they are curated to so it's not like you're going and seeing, you know, an infinite number of things. There's a curated list. The other thing we do is we do provide certain curators and it's a service on top of our software platform where you get a person on our team that kind of hand-holds you and works with you. And they're really, you know, they come up with ideas, they will go out and source that idea for you. But in that case, it's a much more customized experience, where they're saying, Hey, who are you trying to send to? What's your budget? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you know, blah, blah, blah, and based on all that, they'll come back here and say, Hey, here's five different ideas and things you could do. And then you can pick one of those fives and boom, go with it. And so I think we've, we've found that some of our customers will have their own ideas and just need us to source, package, kit, ship, and track. And so they might be, you know, they might have too many ideas. And they're like, hey, I need these 20 things done perfect. Some people have no ideas and want ideas, and some people are kind of in the middle and want to just kind of browse through a catalogue. So depending on where our customer is, we'll be able to solve for that and fit their needs.

Jim  14:16  
When you were in sales—I remember you telling a cool story about how you noticed in your interaction by email and phone with a particular client. You notice some things about the guy's family, his what his kids were doing. And you use that information to come up with a zinger of a gift that you could—it was more of an experience that you offered. Can you share that story or one like it, because I'm sure you got lots of those stories?

Kris  14:51  
Yeah, so I think the one of the big things about gifting is the personalization piece. And I think there's two things to think about. There's customization and personalization. When I think of customization, I think of putting your logo on it or, you know, customizing it for what the sender might want. And a lot of that comes to branding and that. When I think of personalization, I think, how does the recipient really have an extra "wow" moment. And so with that, you know, a lot of our customers will tend to do what you normally do, which is you listen to your prospects, you see behind them on a Zoom call, your, you know, chit chatting before a call and they mentioned they're traveling somewhere, or they're, you know, doing this or that. So you pick up on the small talk, and you leverage that small talk to, you know, use it for finding that perfect gift. And I think that works with sales, with customer success, with employees. It's really all about listening, and what you'd normally do if you want to build a relationship with somebody, which is you want to get to know them better. When you get to know them better, you have more ideas on what you can send. And so we actually have a pretty cool Amazon integration where, let's just say I knew you were a New York Yankees fan, and you're about to, you mentioned you're about to have a new kid. Maybe I'd go search for New York Yankees onesie on Amazon. And with that there's a little Sendoso button that you can use, you click it, you click "Buy with Sendoso". And it'll use your pre allocated Sendoso money. And it will take it from Amazon's warehouse, send it to our nearest warehouse, we unbox it, put a handwritten note in there, maybe put something else in or maybe some branded sticker, send it out, and then track it all through the systems that you want to track it through. And so the recipient in this case gets a really personalized gift that looks, you know, hand-boxed, you know, it doesn't have the Amazon packing tape or anything. And you know, you're gonna be a hero, where you're like, Wow, this, you know, person really listened, this gift was awesome.

Jim  16:55  
It's really cool. And, and what what I'm hearing this say, again, for a person like me who—I care about all my people. I will pick up on things like, oh, yeah, they're a fan of the Yankees and they're having a kid. But then knowing what to do with that information, to turn it into a gift. I'm at a loss. So it's like, what you're offering is adding the missing piece for me, which is super, because I want to show care. But I trip over the "how do I do that" often. I'm admitting, I'm a, I'm a pretty fallible guy.

Kris  17:40  
[laughs] I would say it comes down to, you know, sending gifts feels like a lot of work. And so what happens is you put it 10th on your to do list and never get to it. And it feels like, okay, I've got to come up with the idea, I've got to buy that, I've got to, you know, ship it, I've got to follow up on it. And so I think most people have the intention where they want to send more gifts, they want to be more personal, they want to show more gratitude. But it's just too much work. And so that's where I think if you have a platform like Sendoso in place, the "too much work" is no longer an excuse. It's a click of a button, or it's a search-and-send, or it's an automation, you know, some of our customers set up automated follow ups where, you know, after a meeting, it automatically sends this. And so you can use software to your advantage there. And I think that's the big breakthrough that we're seeing is we've removed the barriers, and we've removed the excuses. So there's no more like, Oh, this is 10th on my to-do list. It's like, Oh, I didn't even need to add it to my to do list. It was so easy.

Jim  18:41  
Yeah, yeah. So I'm thinking about people on, you know, executive teams and companies. They care about each other, they care about the people that are in their department that they're leading. And they're picking up some of this information about them. They're working to, quote, "get to know their people". But boy, this takes it to a whole new level. I will admit to you, it's kind of exciting to me, that what you're building offers a "come alongside and help demonstrate care", that could be accessible to anybody. And like I can only imagine that as a company builder someday you want it to be accessible to anybody, everybody. So that it's really easy for them to use it the way that it will work for them. And yeah, as a, as a leader in a company. Think about that, like I'm just imagining you're in HR. You might be the the development leader for HR and you're thinking about the team that you've recently pulled together and, some of them new hires, and some of them have maybe not even met in person. As you said, this, this would be a very helpful way without it becoming like, four days of full time work, to put together ideas of, of ways to express your care and deliver that in a memorable way.

Kris  20:23  
Exactly. And I think memorable is the piece where it's—you want to be memorable. I don't remember how many emails I've gotten where it's like, that was a memorable email. But yeah, you remember the gifts, you remember the physical packages and the the thing that might be sitting on your desk.

Jim  20:37  
Yeah. So again, come back to your own company culture. Well, actually, before we do that, let me just say, another thing that Kris and I have talked about that I think is super cool is that you're just getting going on finding ways to use machine learning—artificial intelligence—to look at the communication that goes on between one of your clients and their, their people, whether they're fellow employees or prospects and customers. So from that communication, some of those personal interests and preferences can be gathered together so that it's even easier for you to offer options to those people from your curated gift list that will especially kind of create those meaningful experiences as the gift gets developed and delivered.

Kris  21:40  
Yeah, so I think, um, you know, our goal is really, "How can we make it easier for our customers?" And one of those ways is how can we use the data that's out there through social media through other channels to find out little personal tidbits about people and leverage that to suggest recommended things to send. And whether it's knowing that you're in a certain location, and that, you know, if it's freezing cold in Boston, you know, you might want something different than if it's hot and sunny in Hawaii? And so, you know, you can use some other data points to predict and suggest what is more likely to get clicked on or, or what's more likely to get opened and responded by. And so we do a little bit of that. There's also just using data to try to complete the loop to show the results. If there's, if you're trying to drive conversion, there's data that we can use to better understand, did this gift actually help with closing a deal or employee retention and some of those things.

Jim  22:46  
Right. Well, I'm imagining that when you were putting these packages together, when you were in that sales role, you were very intentional. So when you made your handwritten note, it wasn't scrawled, you actually took time to write it. So it was legible. You, you put it in a box that was well arranged and organized, it wasn't just stuffed in. All of those little details. Somehow, you have to have had systems and an approach that cascaded that attention—I'm going to say, kind of values—that you've brought, so that the hundreds of people that are doing that for you now on your team, spread out not just across the country—I think you've actually got some international locations now?

Kris  23:49  
Correct. Yep. We're worldwide.

Jim  23:50  
Yeah. So like, talk about that. Because that's, that's about cascading culture. And we all want to learn more how to do that well, so how did you do that?

Kris  24:02  
Yeah. So I think it's really preaching from the top, just the desire to create this amazing unboxing experience. And it's one of the things that when we interview we bring up, when we're onboarding new employees, when we're doing employee training, in our warehouses... We're constantly thinking about, "What is the unboxing experience going to be?" And that's kind of our number one most important focus. I think that and SLA, making sure that we can be timely. We don't want to spend two weeks making it a pretty unboxing experience. So it's the SLA mixed with the unboxing experience. I think everyone knows that. It's something that we've preached and so it's something that people really are passionate about now. And so we have people on our team that go above and beyond to really make it feel like if you're packing that box and getting it out to—that you are the one that is sending this. And what if you were giving this gift to your mom or your sister or your best friend? You know, what care would you put in? And really instill that value in our team so that each and every box is, you know, packed with love.

Jim  25:16  
With that attention, with love, I love it.

Kris  25:18  
Exactly.

Jim  25:19  
And you just said a word that a lot of people are scared to say in the business world: love. And I'm glad you said it. Because I think we believe that love actually makes the biggest difference in the world. And if we would just be brave and dare to love people. And show love, everything gets better. So that's cool. Here's another little piece. As I work with companies in the manufacturing world, quality is a big deal. Consistency is a big deal. Meanwhile, nobody likes someone looking over their back, so to speak, you know? So how do you do quality control in a way that is working for people? That's helping it be consistent and high quality, without kind of sucking life out of people?

Kris  26:20  
Yeah, so I would say a couple of things. One is I think the nature of our business with packing boxes for gifts, is a little bit more fun than maybe other manufacturing jobs or other manufacturing situations. So I think we just kind of lucked out that, you know, people tend to, you know, be a little bit happier when they're packing up a box of wine or a, you know, pina colada, or some of these other fun things that people tend to pay a bit more attention. So I think that's one thing too, is there's, you know, so many different dynamic options and customizations, where you're actually kind of intrigued at times, like what's being packed in the box. Unlike, I think, maybe in traditional warehousing or manufacturing: it's like, you're doing the same mundane task, minute after minute, hour after hour. You know, one day you might be packing a pinata, the next day, a really cool Lego kit, the next minute, it's a Yeti mug. So there's a bit of, again, dynamicness, that creates less of a, you know, "this is boring", but more of like, "oh, this is exciting," and I'll QA this more. And then I think it also goes back to the culture, the values of really trying to, you know, pack boxes with love, and really making us feel like you're sending a gift to your mom, and what would you want that to show up as? So we've really, while we do have quality assurance managers in our warehouses, their day to day job is to ensure that we kind of instill that in every employee. So when you're picking and packing a box, you know, you are thinking about quality assurance, too. So we have, you know, hundreds of quality assurance folks, any given time! And so I think it goes back to how do you instill values? How do you celebrate those values? I think, you know, we've done a good job of really showcasing this. We'll pick out a random gift box and highlight someone's success saying, "hey, you know, Jodi over here did an amazing job. Look at this!" So, I think you can celebrate that culture, celebrate those wins. You know, it creates an environment around you that people want to be like that, too.

Jim  28:33  
That's, I really like that. How do we celebrate—and, and I'm hoping, Kris, that that looks different. Like, in some cases, it's somebody right there on the floor, sees a box that is incredible. And just calls the five or six people in the area around, they'll have a look at it. And so they're famous to five or six people. Whereas there may be some times where you videotape it, and you share it with hundreds of people in your company. So there's... it's easy for me to imagine how this could be used in any context, actually. What you are saying—and I want us to not miss—is that you have found a way to help the people doing the job, somehow personalize that it's going to someone, to a person, not just a thing. And that they care about that person. You ask them, "imagine it's your mother" or whatever—that's perfect. Is there a story or two of some amazing gift that someone in your company has given you? Because they have so learned the values and the importance that you see in all of this, that they've realized it would be good to exercise that in showing their care for you?

Kris  30:02  
Yeah, so I'd say one of the things that I was really impressed with lately is, it was a recent candidate. It was actually an enterprise sales representative who listened to one of my podcasts in which I mentioned that I really like tequila, and sent me a bottle of tequila during the interview process with a really nice, thoughtful, handwritten note. And so I thought that that was a really crafty and creative way to, you know, engage with me. I get, you know, I understand when people send me thank you notes via email, but, you know, given that we're a gifting and direct mail company, you know, why wouldn't you send me a gift? And so that person really stood out. We hired them—great individual. But I think it's that extra attention to detail and that extra effort that really made me feel like they were listening. And so I think the other thing, too, was that it wasn't just any bottle of tequila. I mentioned on that podcast that I really like Don Julio 1942 tequila, which is a more expensive one, which I, you know, I would have been fine with any one. But, you know, they made an effort to say, hey, I was listening to podcast XYZ, you mentioned this. And so, you know, and then there was, you know, it was that much more impactful because they spent the time and the effort.

Jim  31:31  
Right, right. That's a good story. And let's be clear, we're not saying that employees should all start sending gifts to their CEO, we're simply saying that this idea of showing care, anyone can use it, and it will be powerful and persuasive in all kinds of scenarios. Very, very interesting.

Kris  31:57  
Yep.

Jim  32:00  
There's a saying that, that I've heard, and you probably have heard it, too: "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care about them."

Kris  32:12  
I like that quote!

Jim  32:14  
And it feels to me like you're building an entire company based on that idea. Talk a little bit more about the legs that you've seen, because because I, as an entrepreneur and a company builder, I'm excited about your story. So share with us some of the milestones that you've seen and passed as you've gone from, "Here's an idea. Maybe I could start the world's first sending platform," to like... you've had some incredible momentum and traction. I love your story.

Kris  32:53  
Yeah. So you know, starting back in the very beginning, I'd say the very first milestone was quitting my last job and my first day at this job. That was a, you know, it's a big hurdle. It's going from, you know, a really great paying job to a job that has no idea what the next day is gonna be. And you know, who knows if you're going to make any money. And so I think that was a major milestone. I'd say, our first was when we first launched and got our first customer. Well, that was a major milestone, that customer still with us today. So that's really exciting. Then, you know, our first hire, when we first got an employee, that we convinced them to come work for this, you know, brand new company. So that was exciting. And then I think there's other milestones along the way, like, you know, $1M in revenue, $10M in revenue. I think our recent funding round that we announced last week, the $100M Series C, like, that's a great milestone for us. It's incredible. So all of those along the way, I think are, you know, and I could probably go on for hours in terms of other little micro milestones, whether it's this or that. So I think, for us, and for me, you know, starting this company is all about creating those milestones, and really creating a place where we celebrate, you know, the small wins, as well as the big wins. So, yeah, I think I think celebrating wins creates momentum and momentum creates more momentum and falls into success. You can kind of create your own success if you can continue to build momentum.

Jim  34:25  
Give us some idea of the timeline. When was that? That day when you were not employed and you took the first step. Now you're hoping this works, and nobody's paying you...

Kris  34:38  
Yeah, so that was October 1, 2016. And I remember it because when I was in sales before, I had to kind of quit at the end of a quarter because it just made logical sense with sales pipeline. Quit the end of September said, "Hey, Q3, I'm done. Actually, I'm done with everything." So October 1, in 2016, was the first day of Santoso. And then our first customer came in kind of, I think it was mid 2017, I don't know the exact day, but that was kind of our first customer. And then the rest of the milestones kind of piled on after.

Jim  35:17  
And those are huge. And the idea that that's happened in five years is sobering like, congratulations. Wow. There are lots of early stage companies that haven't grown as quickly as you have at Sendoso. So give us more scale. Roughly, how many people do you have working in the company now? Roughly, how many customers do you have?

Kris  35:41  
Yeah, so we have almost 500 employees now? Well, worldwide, we have four offices, two in the US, one in Europe, one in Asia, we have about 900 customers that amassed 10s of 1000s of users. Yeah, we've sent about 3 million+  packages or gifts through our platform. We've raised about $152 million in venture funding. That's some great stuff. [laughs]

Jim  36:20  
You're breathing some rare air, Kris.

Kris  36:22  
Yeah.

Jim  36:23  
I congratulate you. Really excited about what you've got—and as you said, really, who knows how big this could get? Because—

Kris  36:32  
Oh, yeah, we're just getting started, in my opinion.

Jim  36:35  
So the addressable market, that's a terminology that we use in in our business building as I work on boards of early stage companies.

Kris  36:43  
Yep.

Jim  36:43  
The addressable market is humongous! Like, hundreds of billions of dollars? My goodness.

Kris  36:50  
Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're sitting on a goldmine here and something that is just, the sky's the limit for us.

Jim  36:59  
Cool. Well, I am very inspired by what you're doing. And it makes sense to me that sales teams in larger organizations would absolutely be drawn to what you offer. But as you as you said earlier, there are other use cases that are emerging. And I passionately believe that an important use case is going to be internal: for leaders to use your service to find ways to meaningfully show care to the people that they're working with. I know that's not a replacement for other ways to care for them that every leader and manager should should take. But specifically, I think this is just making it easy to do another piece that's going to be memorable. If you could speak directly to leaders that are aiming to build a healthy culture, what would be some kind of parting words that you would give? Because no question in my mind, you don't grow to 500 people in five years without making it be a place that people want to be at and work in and stay. So yeah, what, what are some big deal takeaways in that regard?

Kris  38:21  
Yeah. So one of the things that I strive for one is, "Have fun." I think that I keep, we keep fun as one of those core values. We want to make sure people are really having fun. And so I think it's, that's something that day zero, we wanted to make sure that when we think about our employees, when we think about our culture, having fun is a part of that. I'd say two is staying humble. I think that, you know, I like to work with our support team, or our SDR team, or, you know, there's not one person in the company that is, you know, too cool to talk to Kris. And so I think that's really important. It's created a really level playing field. And it's created a place where people feel like they can raise their hand, share their ideas, they can, you know, be anything they want to be at the company. So I think, you know, being humble, and I think the last thing is really, you know, think about it as a marathon, not a sprint. I think a lot of leaders really over index and burn themselves out or burn their employees out. And, you know, if you think about it as marathon, you know, maybe there's some small stuff that you shouldn't be sweating, and you shouldn't keep on going. And, you know, really look at this as a, you know, a 10-year business, not just a, you know, one-year, one-day business. So that's how I've been looking at it and it's been working really well for me.

Jim  39:37  
Good for you. Hey, tell our listeners, how do they find Sendoso and how do they track with you, Kris, on social media?

Kris  39:45  
Yeah, so you can find Sendoso at Sendoso.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, would love to connect there. And you can also email me it's Kris—it's K-R-I-S at Sendoso.com. Feel free to shoot me a note. I love talking with other leaders, I love talking about business. So shoot me a note and happy to connect.